Saluda Mist cymbals.... where are they made? [Archive] - DrumShed

smoke_n_drums

04-08-2005, 06:14 PM

The hammering marks on SOME Mist cymbals ARE similar to the Wuhan S series.

They are also similar to the hammering marks on Zildjian ZBT, Zildjian ZBT, and Stagg Hammered series.

Does this 14" Mist crash look like an S series?

Actually..a very small number cymbals did come from Wuhan. It never went any further with them because they couldn't/wouldn't do what Saluda wanted.

China is a big place and Wuhan isn't the only producer of cymbals and gongs.

BTW: A lot of cymbals coming from Turkey look alike too....what's up with THAT?

A lot of cymbals made in North American look alike too.

sspercussion

04-10-2005, 05:42 PM

'HEBEI HUAILAI GONG FACTORY, a subsidiary of HUBEI MACHINERY AND EQUIPMENT IMPORT & EXPORT COMPANY, makes all of the cymbals coming out of China - Wuhan, Stagg, Saluda, Rancan, JiaYin, World Percussion, etc.; those little Bao, Jing, Wu, Feng gongs and the like...plus all Zildjian and Sabian gongs over 30".' -- as quoted on many forums and publications throughout the web.

Zildjians looking the same? In ZXT, ZBT, so what?...that is what we come to expect as the norm these days when huge corporations are out to make the holy dollar no matter what the quality.

Frankly I would take one of the revered Saluda Mist Cymbals over the above mentioned - they'll sound better, and probably last longer...all said these are great entry level cymbals for the novice drummer.

Cymbals coming out of Turkey look alike,...well yeah....some will overlap in series, for they are Types of cymbals. Especially if there is a choice between series. It's been like that for AGES. Keep in mind however that you're looking at distinct and separate companies that make their product start to finish. Attempting to compare a truley hand crafted Turkish cymbal to the above mentioned brands and types is lunacy.

Kanbasher

04-10-2005, 08:17 PM

From what I have read previously about the Mist's is that the blanks come from China (from where in China seems to be up for debate) and then they are hammered & lathed here in the States. It would be really nice if Jamie would respond and clear this up once & for all for those who feel it's important.

smoke_n_drums

04-10-2005, 08:52 PM

:idea: Before I jump in I'd like to say that a good sounding musical instrument is where you find it. :idea:

So then the statment Saluda is Wuhan should really be Saluda is Hubei?

Hubei just recently posted a website. Before that you could see Wuhan and Universal on the web as examples of bronze coming out of China. I'm pretty sure Universal is a distribution company.

From what I can see, all the corporations in China have the same owner........the government.

Somehow I get the feeling that there is more than one foundry dispite who owns or controls the Corporation. The Wuhan providence is China's version of the Bosphorous region in Turkey. They both have a tradition of artisans making cymbals and gongs, albeit in a different style. Turkish style cymbals from China are relatively new. Both places have several foundries and groups(companies) making intruments from bronze.

All this aside, I go by one important thing. Sound. I have both Saluda and Wuhan lion cymbals and while they appear similar, the Saludas are darker and fuller. The Mists sound every bit as good as the cymbals I own from the "Big 3." There are even a few "surprises" in the lower lines. I've an SSXD 20" Ping ride that much closer to a K Custom ride than the price difference. None of the drummers that have been part of the comparison I did believed the K Custom to be 3 times the cymbal to the SSXD.

Here is a curious thing: Wuhans cost more than Saludas at drumgearonline.

I might be preaching the the choir here @ GN, but will restate what I've been saying all along:

Cymbals sounds are subjective and personal to each drummer and percussionist.
Saluda ISN'T the be-all and end-all of cymbals. It is an alternative. An alternative that offers B20, handcrafted cymbals for prices you normally expect to pay for the B8 offerings of Sabian and Zildjian. This is similar to the smaller producers in Turkey offering cymbals at far below the same instrument sold by the "Big 3." (Yes, I own a few of those too.)

In the end it's all about personal preference and choices.

munich

04-10-2005, 08:55 PM

are you saying we should buy our cymbals using our ears, Smoke?
:-)

smoke_n_drums

04-10-2005, 09:04 PM

............... Attempting to compare a truley hand crafted Turkish cymbal to the above mentioned brands and types is lunacy.

My comparison is between similar instruments.

I didn't compare Handcrafted cymbals from Turkey to those from China.

They are different instruments *** D'oh! *** <----- I couldn't controll myself

The are both round with holes in the middle and called cymbals.....they sound very much different.

In a few instances they come close, but basically the cymbals from Turkey and China are two different animals.

The wise ass in me says this debate is academic once the sound guy pushes the "suck" button.

smoke_n_drums

04-10-2005, 09:05 PM

are you saying we should buy our cymbals using our ears, Smoke?
:-)

Drums too!

**Edit** As OCD as I am about by sounds, I think we sometimes elevate drums and drumming to the level of rocket science.

If it sounds good, play it.

sspercussion

04-10-2005, 10:23 PM

Smoke:

Ditto that! It's always a good thing when we see a company offering an alternative to the big three....welcomed for sure. I've had the 16" Mist crash and the 10" Mist splash at one time. Saluda's are a totally different animal with a different business model, but the gig is, if you listen to them and find something you like - all the better. I did, two of them, even if they're made in China.

From what I know about the brand they are basically produced under contract and then logo's are applied here in the states. Who knows, there are so many versions of the story, maybe someday Saluda may explain exactly where these really come from. Hell, the low end Zildjians are supposedly Chinese as well, but you don't hear Zildjian saying they are even if they were. (Not to mention almost everything we touch anymore in our everday lives!) As is with history, the Chinese have been making cymbals for centuries, but in the end quality was always questionable with imported goods from China since most manufacturers there forfeit quality for price and production quotas. That's with anything, from vitamins to ocean transport vessels.

Drumreaper

04-13-2005, 02:04 PM

That saddens me. I've been using Saludas for a while now, and one of the reasons I started is because they gave me the impression that were made in the USA. Now I don't know what to think. They DO look exactly like the Wuhans, now that you mention it, and I have seen a Wuhan up next to one of my Mists...sheesh.

SaludaCymbals

04-13-2005, 02:41 PM

There are more metal and cymbal plants in the world. I have yet to run across a single cymbal company, that makes the majority of their cymbals in their own plants. Please prove in this forum, that any cymbal company can make the majority of their cymbals in their plant. Anyone who thinks that the big three don't get their work done in these other plants are very sadly mistaken. Paiste doesn't do any of their casting and neither do we, Saluda. We DO NOT purchase anything from Hubei. We purchased a sample batch in 2001 based on our specifics and they didn't have the characteristics that we were looking for. This was very discouraging because they are a very massive cymbal company. I hope that clears things up from now and forever. I do not deny that we contract out our hand casting. We turn these rough cymbal blanks into a completely different cymbal than anyone has to offer. We do not have the facility or resources to do our own hand casting. It is a goal, but a long term one, to do hand casting in South Carolina. Sheet metal cymbals are different but hand casting, to get them to the way we want them, will have to be done in different plants.

I hope this clarifies things.

Jamie

smoke_n_drums

04-14-2005, 12:13 AM

Just for that............

28" Saluda Voodoo

This cymbal should come with it's own zip code.

Drumreaper

04-14-2005, 02:01 PM

Jamie, I understand the whole casting situation, but casting is only a small part of cymbal manufacturing - but I see your tagline says "cymbal MANUFACTURER" --just what does Saluda actually manufacture? Just the logos? What about hammering and lathing? Or would "cymbal IMPORTER" be more accurate? Please understand, I'm not trying to trash you or Saluda, I love the cymbals a lot. I just feel a bit misled about the whole thing, and that maybe the company is trying to downplay the fact that the cymbals may actually be completely manufactured overseas, which is definitely not what I was led to believe. It would be nice if someone would step up to the plate and clear this issue up without all the doubletalk.
I don't think the problem here is one of where the cymbal is manufactured, but rather, the misconception the public has had about the whole thing.

gheeley

04-14-2005, 02:27 PM

the only missleding inf i have ever read about saluda is all the NON saluda owners that speculate that they are made by wuhan etc etc.. everything else that i have been told (smoke is wealth of knowlage) read & informed from jamie im 100% satisfied with.

other wise jamie would not have been able to provide me with the cymbals he did, he as to have controll over the end product or this would not be possible.

see my thread regarding Highwood drums & saluda

SaludaCymbals

04-14-2005, 03:10 PM

I find it very interesting that an endorser would question this in a public setting to the degree you have taken it, especially after what we did to allow you to trade in your junked cymbals. I think you need to question why the cymbals you traded in (considered high end by that cymbal company) had so many dings, bends at the keyhole, small cracks and other flaws. You got pretty upset when I said that I would NOT allow the trade since your cymbals were junked. I eventually gave in since you had to have them for the Chuck Berry show.

I guess us offering you better sounding and higher quality cymbals wasn't enough for you.

Most of our blanks come already hammered. We do rehammer many to get a cymbal closer to a sound/look, as needed. All cymbals go through a very detailed process to become a Saluda Mist; it is after this process that the cymbals are then lathed and buffed. After buffing, they go through more processes to get them even better looking and sounding. We probably put more time and efforts into each cymbal than anyone else. I know we use more steps getting our cymbals with a very detailed, complex look and sound.

I think I am at fault personally for not addressing our web site with all information. Once our new web site is up, it will have more of this information and I will make sure that additional information and pictures are shown.

Jamie

Woody

04-14-2005, 04:08 PM

Should Dell be called a "computer assembler"? They don't manufacture their parts.

Saluda is a cymbal manufacturer. Their manufacturing facility appears to be a contracted Chinese company. So what? It's a global economy--get used to it.

I consider my company, Crescendo Drums, to be a drum manufacturer even though I source all of my parts from a variety of suppliers. Call me a drum "assembler" if you wish, but call Spaun, OCDP, Pork Pie, GMS, et al the same thing. It's just semantics.

If someone were to ask me if I make a certain part in house, I'd answer no but I won't go out of my way to point it out to anyone. I'm not hiding anything, it's just immaterial in the global economy we live in.

None of us were involved in the conversation between the Saluda and the endorser mentioned above, so bringing that into the public realm seems unnecessary.

Just my two pence,

W.

smoke_n_drums

04-14-2005, 05:05 PM

Good point Woody.

The fact is China is producing a lot of stuff, not just cymbals. As time goes on we will see more musical instuments from there in the market place. Eventually they will have a product on par with and serious competition for companies that now enjoy a large market share.

I've been very surprised at the reactions by some (here and on other forums) by the fact that the basic casting is not done in-house. Yet I've NEVER seen any post about Paiste who gets their sheet bronze made to specs from outside sources.

The goal of having a foundry is easier said than done. EPA requirements are very strict. (Both DW and Zildjian have stopped or changed some of aspect of their operation because of this.) Does this mean Saluda will not get a foundry? No, it's means it'll be later than sooner (and maybe located someplace else.)

This may be "talking out of turn" but Saluda has already pursued building/purchasing a foundry. Issues of location, logistics and staffing became a show stopper. Getting a foundry is now what's called a "long term goal."

I play Saludas because of the sound and price. If I didn't have an endorsement I'd still play Saluda. Before signing on, I looked into the "Saluda is Wuhan" claim and am satisfied that this isn't the case. I talk about Saluda more than most because I feel the combination of great sounds, low prices, and "ear selection" are a valuable alternative to a drummer. When I was starting out the low priced cymbals sounded low price. *** Hey it's "Turk" spelled backwards...it's gotta sound good :rolleyes: ***

Crazy8s

04-14-2005, 05:46 PM

Saluda did not actually mine the copper tin and silver, henceforth they are not worthy...even worse, they didn't actually assemble the atoms into the elements, or wind the strings into the subatomic particles that created the atoms that yield the elements of copper, tin or silver....

pls138

04-14-2005, 05:59 PM

The way I see it, I really don't care how or where Saluda cymbals are made, all I care about is how they sound. Are Saluda Mist's the same as Stagg or Wuhan? No. Get a Wuhan, Stagg, and Mist crash hit em and you'll know. Saluda is probabaly the only cymbal company out there that you can send an e-mail telling them what kind of sound you like in a cymbal. IMHO, I think Saluda Mist's are just as good as any other cymbal out there; and they are alot cheaper. Maybe there are some Paiste sig.'s and K Custom Zildjians out there that I would like better than my Mists, but I'm not gonna spend double to triple the price. Like everyone else has been saying, Saluda gives you an alteritive to the Big 3. There prices are great and they sound great, so that's good enough for me.

sspercussion

04-15-2005, 01:55 AM

...I have yet to run across a single cymbal company, that makes the majority of their cymbals in their own plants. Please prove in this forum, that any cymbal company can make the majority of their cymbals in their plant....

Jamie

That's easy. Istanbul Agop, Istanbul Mehmet, Annatolian, Turkish, Bosphorus, Spizzichino, and the list goes on...but you only wanted one....

SaludaCymbals

04-15-2005, 10:20 AM

That's easy. Istanbul Agop, Istanbul Mehmet, Annatolian, Turkish, Bosphorus, Spizzichino, and the list goes on...but you only wanted one....

Great point! I always forget about those. I don't know anything about Spizzichino but I know the rest make really nice cymbals. One of these companies lost their main cymbalsmith and we tried to lure him here but he wanted to start his own company in Europe. Obviously we wanted him to hand cast cymbals at our location.

I don't know this for sure and I am only asking this because of rumors: Are all of these plants old Zildjian plants, except for Spizzichino? Who is Spizzichino? Do they have a web site?

What was the deal with Istanbuls either combining or splitting recently because one of the cymbal owners died in a boat accident? Does anyone have the scoop on that?

Jamie

sspercussion

04-15-2005, 05:12 PM

Spizzichino is a one man op out of Italy, jazzer's love this guys stuff - mostly custom made. I stand corrected on the Mehmet's, not all of their pies are made in house.

As far as the split, both business and personal issues caused a split of the company years ago after the untimely death of Agop - resulting after a tragic accident. Creating to different business models, of which the original factory (with the old "K" tooling) remains Agop. Frankly - between the two - players will tell you there's a slight difference. I played the Mehmet's and replaced all with Agop due to sound and build quality issues. Not to mention the customer service is by far more appropriate through Agop.

Jamie, thnaks for clearing some of the mystique surrounding the Saluda brand. For a long time your cymbals have been known to be re-badged Wuhans by many musicians. Understanding that all business start somewhere, and that the global marketplace offers opportunities for small businesses to obtain their products inexpensively, it is not a bad decision to at least give that a try. And as mentioned on the thread, the tree huggers would probably have a real hard time seeing a smoke stack pumping out smoke, and without the state graft being paid getting a working metal foundry is all but impossible. Corporate America. Yuch.

Meanwhile, keep playing around with the Mist series, they are surely getting there. And I know that inside, you would much rather make them start to finish.

Best Regards.....

munich

04-15-2005, 07:25 PM

Sorry about jumping in here, because what I'm going to say is "second hand information".
A guy I know here in Munich has visited the Spizzichino factory in Italy some time ago.
Every cymbal there is done "one-by-one" with a clear vision from him, hand-hammered and all.
Time consuming and precious.
But the casts are coming from Wuhan.
That's what I've been told...

smoke_n_drums

04-15-2005, 08:39 PM

I believe some Spizz' have been made with bronze from China. He also gets his bronze in Europe(?)

It's kind of ironic that we're going round and round over foundries...I'll be driving by one tonight on the way to (and from) a gig.

I always think about this topic (which I've addressed on several forums) when I see the red hot metal castings there.

Jamie: Thanks for letting folks hear it from "the horses mouth." **I think my postings sometimes get perceived as ramblings from an over zealous endorser. On more than one occasion I've been told: "You're an endorser, you've GOT to say nice things........"

ssperc: One point I routinely make about the "Big 3" also applies to the smaller companies you deal with in Turkey. They make basically the same (probably better) cymbals as the high end K type cymbals of the Big 3.....and can be had at a fraction of the cost. Yet the K Cons/HHXs/Sigs-Trads get a lion's share of the market. Does this ever "frustrate" you?

sspercussion

04-16-2005, 07:08 PM

ssperc: One point I routinely make about the "Big 3" also applies to the smaller companies you deal with in Turkey. They make basically the same (probably better) cymbals as the high end K type cymbals of the Big 3.....and can be had at a fraction of the cost. Yet the K Cons/HHXs/Sigs-Trads get a lion's share of the market. Does this ever "frustrate" you?

I think the big picture there is a name. I used to play Zildjian back when they made cymbals. The Istanbul K's. Of course they made a huge name for themselves, and thus you will see today that the "status" cymbal lives on. Unfortunately, the cymbals they make have not.

Something got lost twice over, once in the move from Turkey, and another from the move to the USA from Canada. But the corporate advertising budget grew, as did the production of junk - ZXT, ZBT, etc. Oh well, frustrating...nope, I couldn't imagine anyone appreciating a real pie if they prefer to over spend on frisbees.

What's funny is - for instance - the Istanbul Agop factory in Istanbul Turkey is a direct descendant of the old "K" factory. The tradition lives on from centuries old techniques. Most of the tooling at the Agop factory today is that which was used decades ago to make the old "K"s - left behind for the sake of mass production and computerized automation. Some things are better left to an artisan, not?

Drumreaper

04-22-2005, 06:29 PM

Like I said earlier, Jamie, I love my Saludas...I certainly didn't mean to upset you by my remarks! You guys have gone above and beyond the call of duty to meet my needs and I am proud to own the cymbals. I guess I just felt the company may have been shrouding the actual manufacture of the cymbals themselves simply because of the lack of information about the whole process. I apologize if my remarks were taken in that way. I merely seek information! :)