Midi Marimbas

[CSpencer]

I'll go first.

You ever see those marimba midi keyboards? Here's one company that makes them http://www.alternatemode.com/malletkat.shtml. Can you make something like this yourself? You'd need triggers on each note that got sent through midi to a sound processor of some sort. It seems simple enough. Any thoughts?

[James_Walker]

...and there's also the Xylosynth:

http://www.wernick.net

Keep in mind that with mallet percussion, it's not simply a matter of sending a "note ON" message at certain velocities - there are other techniques that mallet players would (usually) want to have access to, including pedalling, mallet dampening, maybe even "dead strokes."

The Kat's programming is really great (and in the interest of full disclosure, I say that as an endorser of the Xylosynth, altho I've owned both instruments) - very powerful, very flexible, and offering capabilities beyond even those I listed above.

[CSpencer]

so... outside the realm of a do-it-yourselfer?

I wouldn’t picture it as a marimba/vibraphone/xylophone replacement. It’s more of an effect thing. I don’t need all that functionality.

[Kevin_B]

so... outside the realm of a do-it-yourselfer?

I wouldn’t picture it as a marimba/vibraphone/xylophone replacement. It’s more of an effect thing. I don’t need all that functionality.

Not impossible... but it'd be a pretty big task. Even if you ignore functionalities like pedaling, etc, it's not quite the same as drumset triggering. Just think -- even just a 61-key keyboard would need that many triggers. And then all those triggers need to go to a module to process the data. My guess is it would be cheaper to buy a professionally made one.

[rhjanes]

alternate mode is a first class company. I've bought three old DrumKat's off ebay and had to send two in for work. First off, they step you through the repair. It didn't work, so I sent them in. For one of the Kats I first bought, it was so old that even a chip upgrade was impossible. It cost some bucks, but they 'rebuilt' it to current standards. I put that in quotes, because from all appearances, only my back plate remained original!! I think they used my chassis and just built a new machine around it!!!! those things retail for about $900.....and they did it for a upgrade price! Good people to work with.
Ray

[James_Walker]

so... outside the realm of a do-it-yourselfer?

I wouldn’t picture it as a marimba/vibraphone/xylophone replacement. It’s more of an effect thing. I don’t need all that functionality.

If someone could come up with a DIY version of a mallet synth, I'd be quite interested to check it out, even if it's limited in scope.

A two-octave instrument, even one that only offers simple functions like a drum trigger, might be nice as an add-on to an existing setup, either for a mallet player (in addition to, say, a vibraphone), or even on drum set. Neil Peart has his small MalletKat on the left side of his kit, and in my "I don't have a real need for it, but man wouldn't it be neat?" moments, I think about how neat it would be to be able to bring some of my keyboard skills to the drum set, even if it's only to add effects, or play a simple counterline, or bass line, etc. I think it would have to be two octaves at least, tho, to make it flexible enough to play in different keys. Three octaves would be plenty, tho - I've got a four-octave XS, and unless I'm doing solo work on it, I could function quite easily with a three-octave range.

There's also the issue of finding a pad surface that is sturdy enough to withstand drum sticks, small enough so that the entire instrument isn't too big to be practical, and that doesn't add too much acoustic contact sound to the equation. (I'm always amazed that Peart's MalletKat can withstand drum sticks as well as it does - you couldn't have paid me enough to play my MalletKat with sticks.)

I don't think you'd need much in the way of MIDI programming capabilities - just the ability to select a MIDI channel, and (maybe) a way to switch octaves (to compensate for the limited range of the instrument as I'm thinking of it). Personally, I use either a laptop computer or an old Yamaha MEP4 to handle the midi programming assignments in my synth work, and I just use the Xylosynth as a playing surface.

[CSpencer]

I found this link. http://www.midiboutique.com/

It looks like these devices take information from triggers and convert it to a midi signal. They're meant for homebuilt keyboards. I don't understand half the words on this site so I don't know if it would worlk to build a malletkat. Anyone here with an electronics background?

[DrBeat1269]

IF your intent is to accuratly recreate a real keyboard as accurately as you can you're probably better off just getting the real thing. However, if your intent is to simply create an instrument that can be played like one that's more limited in scope then you probably could do it.

[James_Walker]

IF your intent is to accuratly recreate a real keyboard as accurately as you can you're probably better off just getting the real thing. However, if your intent is to simply create an instrument that can be played like one that's more limited in scope then you probably could do it.

It depends what you define as a "real" keyboard, and what you consider to be "limited in scope."

If by "real," you mean an acoustic vibraphone, marimba, xylophone (etc.), then I agree with you 100%. One of my pet peeves is someone using a synth (mallet or otherwise) simply to try and emulate the acoustic version of the instrument. (I'll spare you all the long, tedious rant I have on this topic.) Sometimes it's a professional necessity - I'll have my mallet synth on a gig, and the leader will ask me for a marimba patch, or vibraphone patch, etc.; sometimes it's a pragmatic issue ("I'm playing in a pit orchestra, and the score calls for timpani, marimba, vibraphone, bells, and xylophone, but I only have a 6x5' space in which to set up") - but artistically and idealistically, I think that approach is flawed.

If, however, by "real" you mean a "real" mallet synth, like a Kat or a Xylosynth, that allows a player to perform expressively, that's another discussion altogether.

There's no reason, tho, that a mallet synth - and perhaps this is beyond the scope of DIY, perhaps not - can't offer a full range of expressive capabilities. The ones I mentioned above do just that. In my idealistic little mindset, I want a mallet synth to allow me to access sounds that I can't get from acoustic mallet instruments - but given that, I want to be able to phrase, to articulate, to use dynamics, etc., just like I would with an acoustic instrument.

[CSpencer]

I absolutely agree. I would not try to use it as a replacement for an acoustic instrument. I'm equally annoyed when people use malletkats to do something they could do just as well on a keyboard. I wanted to use it for the high school percussion ensemble I teach. I want to mount it above a real marimba, so they can quickly and easily switch between the two. I don't need any thing too complex. It certainly wouldn't be a solo instrument, just another layer of texture. Any of you guys look at that link?

[James_Walker]

I'm equally annoyed when people use malletkats to do something they could do just as well on a keyboard.

Why shouldn't a mallet player (or anyone else, for that matter) play on a mallet synth, rather than a keyboard? I don't see how one is inherently superior to the other. Besides - I'm a fairly decent mallet player, but I suck out loud on piano/keys, so I'm far more successful on a mallet synth than I would be on a keyboard.

Any of you guys look at that link?

It's over my head at the moment, but I'm fascinated - even some of the "simpler" ones there seem to offer the sort of MIDI capabilities that I'd want to have on a DIY mallet synth. Maybe this sort of project would work after all... :)

[CSpencer]

Why shouldn't a mallet player (or anyone else, for that matter) play on a mallet synth, rather than a keyboard? I don't see how one is inherently superior to the other. Besides - I'm a fairly decent mallet player, but I suck out loud on piano/keys, so I'm far more successful on a mallet synth than I would be on a keyboard.

I'm used to seeing them used by high school percussion ensembles. I'm involved in an activity called WGI. Think of it like DCI for percussion ensembles, except that it's open to high schools as well as independent ensembles. Usually when I see a mallet synth being used by a group it’s used as if it were a keyboard; simple moving lines and chords. These sorts of things are much easier and cheaper to do on a keyboard (keyboards are allowed and extremely common in WGI). For that reason mallet synths often come off as gimmicky and pointless in WGI, in my opinion.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I don’t like them. I think they are great tools. That’s why I want to build one. There are things you can play on a mallet synth that wouldn’t work on a keyboard, such as a roll on a single note. Also, they work well with other percussion instruments because you don’t have to put your mallets down. If I can build one I want to mount it above a marimba so they can be played by the same person. I just don’t think it makes sense to use them as keyboard replacements.

I don’t mean to start an argument. I’m sorry if I’ve upset you.

[James_Walker]

I don’t mean to start an argument. I’m sorry if I’ve upset you.

No, no arguments, no case of being upset...I just didn't (and don't) get why "simple moving lines and chords" should automatically default to a keyboard. I don't see why accessing a sound via a mallet synth is a gimmick, but accessing the same sound via a keyboard is not.

I'm not familiar with WGI, but it seems to me that if it's geared towards percussion ensembles, it would make more sense to play these parts on a mallet instrument - electronic or otherwise - rather than a keyboard, to link it to the techniques and approaches of mallet percussion. Seems to me that using an electric keyboard would be even more gimmicky in the context of a percussion ensemble performance, but maybe I'm just missing something here.

EDIT: ....but let's get back to the part we both definitely agree upon - that a DIY mallet synth is something worth investigating, however it may be used! :)

[rhythm.be]

0Y€

i have seen many nice links to simply made constructions

it looks all great and everything is well described and explained.........



new approach of mallet instruments by making them digital, will result finaly in a new kind of malletplayers who will play sounds from other sources controlled by a mallet-like technique and manner of expression untypicaly to the sound they actualy should produce when they were playing on a 'real' instrument.

and that is very positive


but i made some marimbas and xylophones myself

they're still standing there, no-one is interested although the quality is superior (or at least equal) to other european brands.


there are not many good malletplayers and when they have an instrument they usualy keep it for life

most malletplayers i know are smart and do follow the midi and electronic evolution in the musical landscape

it's allready been introduced in contemporary classical music since it's invention.

but still....................



a good friend of mine who is an engineer from austria, made pck-ups for malletinstruments, which are able to trigger midi signals and have a wide implementation of control changes, like any standard midi-chip produces.

i see these things the most on instruments of belgian and other european musicians


and that only because the malletplayer wants to keep his 'normal' keyboard, just in case


another friend of miune from holland made electronic 'real' vibes

but i have no experience with them so i can't say anything,

you don't see them anywhere neigther, all jazz and classical players still use their acoustic instruments


so


is it actualy worth to investigate and finance a project like this

if you know beforehand that it is allready there, and that only a few people will play it.........sometimes, when they have the money to buy it

[vanderplas]

For the development of a midi-system on my eVibe models, I experimented with the midiboutique midi-converter. The conversion itself isn't the issue, it's the converting of the velocity into a time-interval (needed for the midiboutique) that's the problem.
As long as you're not interested in velocity-depending midi, the midiboutique works OK. Converting the velocity into time-interval consumes too much time, making the system for mallet work too slow.
But even when using the midiboutique system not-velocity-sensitive, you need add electronics (per bar) to pick up the signal and convert it into the proper signal asked for by the midiboutique. Not a job for a non-electronics engineer.

Just midi-fying an existing vibe or marimba is a differend question.
It is much-much-much more complicated compared to just a trigger system like the regular digital drums, malletkats and xylosynths.
You need a lot more processing power to accomplish a fast enough response (read scanning cycle time). That's why e.g. the K&K midimaster is only 3 octaves.
Another big problem is detecting a second keystroke while the bar is still vibrating.

Etc., etc., etc.

BTW, a solution is on the way, but I can't predict yet how long it will take.

nico

[CoronaLou]

I have a couple thoughts on the marimba midi keyboard type instruments.
Modification or utilization of a sampling keyboard as a starting point might be cost effective. I don’t know mallet technique but most keyboards have attack/intensity and after touch so it may be possible to derive the desired results. The keyboards also put out midi. Making the trigger board would be the project in that case.

Now an different but related idea. Electric guitars have stayed in the realm of analog all these years. The success has been fantastic due to the techniques of acoustic applying to the electric instrument. So with that in mind, any thoughts on an analog picked up mallet board? It may make a small amount of noise (just like an electric guitar makes some noise) but not hear it in the next apartment kind of noise. What are your thoughts on this? (Oh reading back again, I see that Danny introduced this concept into the discussion already).

[James_Walker]

Now an different but related idea. Electric guitars have stayed in the realm of analog all these years. The success has been fantastic due to the techniques of acoustic applying to the electric instrument. So with that in mind, any thoughts on an analog picked up mallet board? It may make a small amount of noise (just like an electric guitar makes some noise) but not hear it in the next apartment kind of noise. What are your thoughts on this? (Oh reading back again, I see that Danny introduced this concept into the discussion already).

FWIW, this isn't the greatest playing, but I've got some sound files on my site that show examples of vibe samples, vibes recorded through pickups (not Nico's system, but another brand - and welcome to the board, Nico!), and the same vibraphone (same mallets as well) recorded through microphones:

http://www.malletjazz.com/walker/sounds.html

The first selection from the CD "Diver Dance" was recorded on my Xylosynth, triggering vibe samples;

The selection, "What's Your Point?" from the Standards "Plus" CD was recorded with mic's;

The other vibe selections were recorded through pickups, direct to the board. There is a definite difference between the sound thru mic's vs. the sound thru pickups, but it's closer than one might expect. The pickups use piezo elements glued to each of the bars (to a nodal point on each bar, to minimize the impact on the acoustic performance of the instrument).

(The marimba recordings on the page were all done w/mic's, not pickups or samples. The same pickup system that I have on my vibraphone, is also available for marimba, but I haven't made the investment.)

Danny is right - mallet players tend to be a conservative lot, and often are loathe to change from their "tried and true" instruments. My observation is that many dismiss any use of electronics out of hand. However, there are a few of us out there who are incorporating electronics into our mallet work, either using a mallet synth of some sort, or putting pickups on an acoustic instrument and running the signal through effects processing. IMHO, those who are happiest with the electronics, and who get the most out of it all, are those who embrace the sound of electronics to do something unique from vibes and marima (etc.), rather than trying to impersonate or simulate acoustic mallet instruments.

Ironically, mallet synth manufacturers often market their instruments as "a more portable vibraphone, xylophone, or marimba," setting up expectations that these instruments will sound and feel exactly like their acoustic counterparts, which is setting up the buyer for failure, IMHO. That's one factor why e-mallet instruments have had such a hard time gaining widespread acceptance; unrealistic expectations lead to disappointment, which leads to condemnation. Electronic mallet percussion is a different animal from the acoustic counterparts - related, but distinct - and IMHO it's best to approach them on their own terms.

(Yeah, I've thought about this a bit...)

[CoronaLou]

OH JUST GREAT!
Now you guys got me interested in something new!
Boy is my wife gonna be pissed at you! ;)

[tcraw1010]

Hey Lou . . . . .

Perhaps you, myself and Vishal should put our heads together and develop a kic-ass DIY e-Drum/vibes/marimba/rhythm-sick ... whatever. (Ya know, since we all live in/near The OC) ;)




TOM

[CoronaLou]

I am up my arse in work (at work) right now. And finishing up a microprocessor design for a private project that I still have to write code for. After that, I have a couple of zilog development boards which I bought with edrum projects in mind so??

I kinda walk a fine line on edrums, you know electronicdrums.com is my main hangout. So there will be things I will decline to comment on here. But I have wanted to work on a "Trigger" to midi thing and that could go in both places. I think for here I will stick with non drum percussion like a Xylosynth type thing or just the trigger to midi box.

It will be a while before I can start, and I need to do some research on mallet percussion instruments first too.

Lou

[CoronaLou]

Well I did manage to do a small amount of research into this. Man that Xylosynth is a cool design. I read your reviews James, you have been at this for a while hugh. Nice job on the rewiews and the playing too. Man, I am all stoked to learn something new now. This is cool.
Tom, I would be happy to colaborate on a design as time allows.
Well, I am at work, so I gotta run.

[James_Walker]

Well I did manage to do a small amount of research into this. Man that Xylosynth is a cool design. I read your reviews James, you have been at this for a while hugh. Nice job on the rewiews and the playing too.

Thanks for he kind words, Lou.

FWIW (apologies if I come of as a shill - I don't mean to) the folks at Wernick Instruments have changed the Xylosynth's design a little bit since I posted those reviews - they're streamlining the instrument (physically as well as programming-wise) a bit more in the new version, but IIRC they still offer the version I have, which I bought about two years ago. They've adopted the "let the synths/computers do the MIDI 'heavy lifting,' let's just use this as a playing interface" approach to their instrument design, which I think makes sense. Then again, the self-contained MalletKat approach to programming makes sense too - it all depends what you're looking for.

[CoronaLou]

I too feel that the effort required to make a good sound module is hard to justify based on the quality modules already on the market. It is the midi controller that I am interested in. I know the Kat stuff is quality stuff, but I don't want to take an all in one aproach. Percussion based trigger to midi (that goes beyond the current state of the art) has been a goal of mine for a while.

[James_Walker]

Yeah. By "all-in-one," I was referring more to the programming capabilities of the MalletKat, not the idea of internal sounds (which the Kat has as an option, but interestingly enough, over on the Alternate Mode message board, whenever I've seen anyone ask about that, Mario from AM has actually recommended against getting the Kat "with sounds," and spending the difference in price on a good module or sampler. The MalletKat programming allows fantastic flexibility - splitting the keyboard into "zones" to be assigned to different patches, allowing transposition, etc., things that Wernick has opted to leave off their instruments. Their thoughts (and I don't think I'm sharing anything "out of school" here) is that so many synths allow the programming of splits, layering, etc., that it can be redundant to offer that on the controler as well. I see their point - I actually leave my XS set to transmit on two MIDI channels, and then I just run it into either sequencing software or an old Yamaha MEP4 midi programmer. (I haven't gotten into soft-synths just yet.)

[CoronaLou]

Hey James,
I am totaly blown away by your web page! Fantastic job, I will be spending a lot (more) time reading there.

[James_Walker]

Thanks for the kind words, Lou - I've spent far more time working on mallet percussion than drums over the past decade or so, and the web site reflects that. Glad you like it...even with its "state of the art @1994" web design... ;)