Sabian v Zildjian

[DrBeat1269]

When I was talking with Wally Gator Watson a couple months ago he mentioned the main difference between Sabain and Zildjian...I found it to be pretty interresting and wanted to know if anyone else has heard this.....

We all know that Sabian and Zildjian are very similar and share the same family secrets for making cymbals. But Gator said that one of the key indgredianets the Zildjian used to use is now banned for use in the US because of environmental regulations (they mess everyhting up!) and that Zildjian had to change the formula...thus the cymbals just don;t seem to sound like they used to. However in Canada they can still use this element, thus Sabain can still use the old formula.

I know there are some who have heard this and use it as their basis for arguing that Zildjian and Sabain are still ultimatly one company....that they "split" so that the old formula could still be made.

Has anyone else heard about this or could shed some light on it?

Wally is a sabian endorser.

[rhjanes]

hmmm--- what did I miss. Sabian does not have the lead (or what ever) in it, so they were always OK? If they 'shared' the secrets and formula for the metal, then both Sabian and Zil would have had to change. the US cannot ban another country, Turkey, Canada, Italy, etc from using an element. But we can ban the products that result from comming here. But that would mean both, if they were the same, either would have to change or be banned.
Ray

If it sounds good....wack it....

[russelldl]

well, maybe the US banned the element but not products made with the element. That is to say, maybe the element in question is used up in the process or made inert in the cymbal making process. So they can have it in Canada, make it, and still ship it here, but Zildjian can't use the element in the US. This is all just speculation on my part.

[DrBeat1269]

that's my understanding of it russeldl.....it can be here, it just can be used to produce something here.

[smoke_n_drums]

I've read in MD that the Zildjian Brilliant series was discontinued due to environmental concerns.

The current Titanium Series are not the same as the discontinued Brilliants.

Elements aside, I'd attribute changes in the sound of Zildjian to changes in the production process. Over time there have been changes in both the manufacturing methods and weights of their cymbals.

I'd also add that Sabians tend to be thinner than Zildjians.

[DrBeat1269]

I'd also add that Sabians tend to be thinner than Zildjians.

which soulc also be why they sound more like "old" Zildjians.

[smoke_n_drums]

I'd also add that Sabians tend to be thinner than Zildjians.
which soulc also be why they sound more like "old" Zildjians.

The older Zildjians also had a smaller hole than today's "modern" versions.

I purchased a 17" Avedis thin crash from my drum teacher my Jr. year in HS. He bought it new and played it in the late 50's and 60's. Half of the stamped logo was "worn" off from cleaning with the old style abrasive creams. The center hole was slightly keyholed.

I had to enlarge the hole for this cymbal to fit in my Zildjian Cymbal Safe.
**The keyhole is now gone.**

I've since "retired" that cymbal to the music room. (I still gig with the very first "real" cymbal I bought in 1972.........a 20" Avedis Rock Ride. By todays standards it's closer to a medium ride. It's all played in and "dryed out." It now sounds more like a K.)

Wow........while double checking spelling I thought I could hear my arteries hardening.......excuse me while I get some Geritol.

[JazzCat]

The split happened due to a fallout between Robert and Armand Zildjian. Robert got the Meductic K factory in Canada, but Armand kept everything else. The name SABIAN is an acronym for Robert's children's names.

[Mic]

There are no extra elements in the bronze, it is 80% copper and 20% tin. If there is other metal in it, it is just because the copper and/or the tin is not pure.

Zildjians Brillant didn't get discontinued, their Platinum Series did.

[minimalist]

There are no extra elements in the bronze, it is 80% copper and 20% tin. If there is other metal in it, it is just because the copper and/or the tin is not pure.

Zildjians Brillant didn't get discontinued, their Platinum Series did.

Supposedly there are traces of silver, which makes the secret alloy.

[DrBeat1269]

I've actually heard there are small amounts of several other alloys. I know the low end cymbals are strictly copper and tin...the B8 sabians and ZBT (Zildjian?Bronze/Tin) zildjians.

[Mic]

traces - barely detectable quantity - that comes from the impurity of the copper or tin. you will find traces of gold and led and zinc and...

[Mic]

there is no secret alloy!

[russelldl]

It is possible that other elements are used in the making of the metal that are not in the final product. Im not a chemist but I believe that catalysts and other materials are sometimes used up in the process of creating a compound but are not found in the final compound itself. I'm trying to remember an example from my high school chemistry days but none come to mind.
Also, if reports of environmental regualtions being enforces are true then there must be something other than just copper and tin involved.
Also, a trace amount of an element may be barely detectable but we don't know how much of an element is needed to affect the sound. Maybe trace amounts are all that are required.
Also, I don't know anything about cymbal making so all of this is conjecture.

[smoke_n_drums]

..........Zildjians Brillant didn't get discontinued, their Platinum Series did.

THAT'S IT ! I double checked but you posted before I could correct myself.

[Crazy8s]

During the casting, they might have used certain materials in the fire that gave the metal certain acoustic properties.

The difference in quality you are referring to from Zildjian is directly due to them having to account for substantially increased demand. The old ways of making cymbals wasn't fast enough to accomodate demand. They changed the processes somewhat to accomodate the higher output. This resulted in an overall change of sound quality. In my opinion, it is better now than it used to be. Far more consistent. This also allows them to create new models more quickly.