Guitar Center DRUMOFF 2006

[tcraw1010]

Is/Has anyone attended any of the GC DrumOff events yet?

[JLee]

Is/Has anyone attended any of the GC DrumOff events yet?

I like to see a good solo as much as the next guy (probably more) but I think I would just go on sensory overload if I went to something like this.

[drummaman1]

I'm playing in my local GC Drum-off next week...

what to play? I don't pre-meditate these things. All I know is that I don't do stick twirls.:)

[moosryan]

what's the deal with over 18? i figured i'd maybe give it a shot this year...but i'm too young. kinda stupid i think.

[XxStoryOfTheUSeDxX]

I missed the one at my GC last night!! But they're holding the last one next tuesday night, I'll for sure be there

[fubar1217]

what's the deal with over 18? i figured i'd maybe give it a shot this year...but i'm too young. kinda stupid i think.

Supposedly, last year, there was a 5 year old kid beating out older guys obviously way better than him just because he was cute. I heard GC was threatened with a TON of lawsuits because of it.

But I thought they were doing two divisions this year....under 18 and over 18?

[drummaman1]

Supposedly, last year, there was a 5 year old kid beating out older guys obviously way better than him just because he was cute. I heard GC was threatened with a TON of lawsuits because of it.

But I thought they were doing two divisions this year....under 18 and over 18?

The drum guys at GC told me they couldn't deal with the influx of parents...pissed off parents, asking "why didn't my son/daughter win"? "He/She is better than all of those old fogies..." which may be true, but is more likely not...

I thought they were doing two divisions, too. It's expensive enough to do one division...and again, you have to deal with the parents of those kids who, quite frankly, are sore losers...

but moos can play...I think they do make exceptions. Or at least they should.

Big deal. You get in front of a drum kit and "drum-off" for three minutes. There are people who play better with other people, and those who don't. It's all subjective.

So far, I've heard of no local drum-off winner getting the big gig with the hot local band, or anything...what do you win? Sticks, stick bag, t-shirt, a 10" splash cymbal made out of B8...:rolleyes:

It's just fun to check out other drummers and how they play.

[fubar1217]

That's probably true....never thought of the "sore loser" parent aspect of it.

[drummaman1]

GC was even thinking of making it "store optional", too...

Irate parents, man...they just don't come on to football fields and soccer pitches

..reason enough why I don't have any kids of my own...

[ctdrum1]

I've been judging them for our local GC for two years now. The reason that they have an age limit these days is because of the prizes\taxes issue and the advertising of it as well. The legalities of having a minor win a car and promote everything is kind of a pain in the a**. So GC changed the rules to prevent it before it happened.
At least that's what I was told.

[XxStoryOfTheUSeDxX]

I've been judging them for our local GC for two years now. The reason that they have an age limit these days is because of the prizes\taxes issue and the advertising of it as well. The legalities of having a minor win a car and promote everything is kind of a pain in the a**. So GC changed the rules to prevent it before it happened.
At least that's what I was told.

I was told the same thing, mainly the car part

[tcraw1010]

I'm playing in my local GC Drum-off next week...

what to play? I don't pre-meditate these things. All I know is that I don't do stick twirls.:)


BEST OF LUCK !!!

[tcraw1010]

It's just fun to check out other drummers and how they play.

That's the ONLY reason I want to check it out.

[Sam Bredeson]

I don't even know if Minnesota *has* a guitar center... Maybe in the cities, but I've never seen it.

[skaman]

GC is givin out cars in their drum offs?!?!?!?!

[XxStoryOfTheUSeDxX]

GC is givin out cars in their drum offs?!?!?!?!

To the grand prize winner

[Jarick]

Sam, we've got one in Edina and I think one in Roseville.

I participated back in 2000 and didn't move on past the first stage. There were 10 people for each day, one was a little 5 year old kid who just did double bass the whole time and everyone went nuts for him because it was 5. It was cute and all, but :rolleyes:

Anyways, the first place guy was really flashy, stereotypical Modern Drummer type solo. Pretty boring, lots of double bass a little synocopation, lots of flash. The second was a kid who had groove in spades...I guess he's a bass player originally, but man he kicked ass. I probably would have come in third or fourth, but what can you do. My solo started off kind of jazzy, building up into heavily syncopated funk...kind of like Rick Latham stuff on steroids. Not really flashy enough.

My advice, do lots of double bass, and when they say they're judging you on "dynamics" and "variety" they mean "loud" and "double bass."

[drummaman1]

GC is givin out cars in their drum offs?!?!?!?!

the drummers that won both the MN GC store(s) drum-offs in '04 were monster players.

[ctdrum1]

..have gotten nowhere in the drumoff that I've been drumming. As a matter of fact, last weeks winners were more jazz and groove oriented than the monster drummers that also competed.

The judges in my local store have been seriously listening to things like dynamics, musicality and groove. Not to mention, that when I count it off , a lot of the monster drummers can't find 1 again when they start the next bar.

But what do I know.

[fubar1217]

..have gotten nowhere in the drumoff that I've been drumming. As a matter of fact, last weeks winners were more jazz and groove oriented than the monster drummers that also competed.

The judges in my local store have been seriously listening to things like dynamics, musicality and groove. Not to mention, that when I count it off , a lot of the monster drummers can't find 1 again when they start the next bar.

But what do I know.

That's called "playing over the bar line".......which I think was made-up when somebody couldn't find 1. :p

[ctdrum1]

It seems that most of the competitors that I'm judging "Play over the bar line."

I just deduct points because it sounds sloppy, and people seem to notice it when they're listening.

Mike

[tcraw1010]

It seems that most of the competitors that I'm judging "Play over the bar line."

I just deduct points because it sounds sloppy, and people seem to notice it when they're listening.

Mike

I think you should be as tough as possible ith your judging . . . . giving the drummers who have obviously put in the time and study of their craft into their performances.

Far too many "drummers" (or as I liek to call them, "people who think they can play drums") think that a few double bass/tom rolls and/or the ability to play "Smells Like Teen Spirit" make them "drummers." :roll:


For a contest like this, I think you, as a Judge, should (as you are already doing) look at ALL aspects of the drummer's performance - time, groove, dynamics, creativity, etc. I know I would be pretty tough if I were a Judge.



TOM

[munich]

I think that if somebody can play "Smells like teen spirit"
correctly, tight and groovy - then they are indeed able drummers.
Grohl might not be a technical wizzard, but he can play.
No wonder he's in such demand as a session player.

[JLee]

I think that if somebody can play "Smells like teen spirit"
correctly, tight and groovy - then they are indeed able drummers.
Grohl might not be a technical wizzard, but he can play.
No wonder he's in such demand as a session player.

Not sure if that would really be the determining factor, but to each his own.

[ctdrum1]

I think you should be as tough as possible ith your judging . . . . giving the drummers who have obviously put in the time and study of their craft into their performances.

Far too many "drummers" (or as I liek to call them, "people who think they can play drums") think that a few double bass/tom rolls and/or the ability to play "Smells Like Teen Spirit" make them "drummers." :roll:


For a contest like this, I think you, as a Judge, should (as you are already doing) look at ALL aspects of the drummer's performance - time, groove, dynamics, creativity, etc. I know I would be pretty tough if I were a Judge.



TOM

If you could only see my notes and scorecards! I'm fair, but brutal.
Mike

[drummaman1]

It seems that most of the competitors that I'm judging "Play over the bar line."

I just deduct points because it sounds sloppy, and people seem to notice it when they're listening.

Mike

What if it DOESN'T sound sloppy?

Furthermore, what if in the middle of my solo I decide to go from a two feel to a three feel? (Metric modulation)

So the success of the player winning or advancing, is based on the musical or drumming knowledge of the judges?

Good to know...

Forgive me, but it sounds like you will give more points to the player who does a stick twirl or two, "wows" the audience, than the performer who tries to make an honest go at a musical statement.

I'd like to see if the roles were reversed.

[tcraw1010]

What if it DOESN'T sound sloppy?

Furthermore, what if in the middle of my solo I decide to go from a two feel to a three feel? (Metric modulation)

So the success of the player winning or advancing, is based on the musical or drumming knowledge of the judges?

Good to know...

Forgive me, but it sounds like you will give more points to the player who does a stick twirl or two, "wows" the audience, than the performer who tries to make an honest go at a musical statement.

I'd like to see if the roles were reversed.


Sad to see your inability to read and comprehend isn't limited to the Politics section. :roll:

[drummaman1]

Sad to see your inability to read and comprehend isn't limited to the Politics section. :roll:

dude, you're an unbelievable idiot. F**K OFF. leave me alone.

disrespectful s*it.:mad:

[skaman]

yeah tom, that was over the line

[tcraw1010]

yeah tom, that was over the line

He flat out insulted ctdrum1 by insinuating that he isn't skilled/qualified enough to be a good judge ... when ctdrum clearly described what he looks for as a judge.

And then he has the hypocritical odacity to call me disrespectful ?? :roll:

[ctdrum1]

What if it DOESN'T sound sloppy?

Furthermore, what if in the middle of my solo I decide to go from a two feel to a three feel? (Metric modulation)

So the success of the player winning or advancing, is based on the musical or drumming knowledge of the judges?

Good to know...

Forgive me, but it sounds like you will give more points to the player who does a stick twirl or two, "wows" the audience, than the performer who tries to make an honest go at a musical statement.

I'd like to see if the roles were reversed.

A time change is one thing, but sloppiness is another. And with the quality of the guys that I've benn judging with, determining whether it's clean or not is "not" an issue.

Most of us have over 10 years in the industry. All of us over twenty if you include our years playing.

As far as stick twirling and the like. Well you are being judged on style. If you aren't enjoyable to watch then you do not get marked as highly in that category. It's that simple.

But style has not won any of the prelims. It's all been about the quality of the playing, the originaltiy of the solo, and most importantly the musicality.

And yes, most of the guys that are judging have been in some kind of drum off. Myself included.

Here are a few things that the past GC drum off winners have had in common.

Groove
Timekeeping
Dynamics
Musicality
Style

And very importantly, they had fun. And that shows in each competitor, and the judges know it. If you're not getting enjoyment out of playing in front of 25 people in your local GC, then what's to say that you are going to have any more fun playing in front of 25,000.

Nuff said.
Mike

[tcraw1010]

A time change is one thing, but sloppiness is another. And with the quality of the guys that I've benn judging with, determining whether it's clean or not is "not" an issue.

Most of us have over 10 years in the industry. All of us over twenty if you include our years playing.

As far as stick twirling and the like. Well you are being judged on style. If you aren't enjoyable to watch then you do not get marked as highly in that category. It's that simple.

But style has not won any of the prelims. It's all been about the quality of the playing, the originaltiy of the solo, and most importantly the musicality.

And yes, most of the guys that are judging have been in some kind of drum off. Myself included.

Here are a few things that the past GC drum off winners have had in common.

Groove
Timekeeping
Dynamics
Musicality
Style

And very importantly, they had fun. And that shows in each competitor, and the judges know it. If you're not getting enjoyment out of playing in front of 25 people in your local GC, then what's to say that you are going to have any more fun playing in front of 25,000.

Nuff said.
Mike


Hope that's clear enough for our Lil' dummaman.

[drummaman1]

Hope that's clear enough for our Lil' dummaman.

Yes it is

and still...F**K YOU, Tom.

Sanctimonious prick.

If you bothered to read ct's original post, it came off as "prickish" to me. That's all.
He explained himself. I am fine with it, and actually agree with it.

Thanks, ct. Apologies if my post was stand-offish. It was in response to yours.

How better would this world be with less of your type, Tom. What's more is, more people agree with me. They're just sick of you pushing them around, that they just ignore you and you're "out of their hair", so to speak. So be it with me as well.

ok...the gc drum-off. Yes, I will have fun. Mostly the drummers who do well play with dynamics. Playing "piano", "forte", in between.

Most drummers have two volumes: LOUD, and "STOP THAT RACKET!!!!" ...I find it they don't do so well in the drum-off.

ct, let me ask you. You mentioned "originality of the solo". There's a concept. How do you judge originality? Is it someone who plays their solo in 5/4 or 5/8, for instance?

Thanks again for the response.

Little-Big-Drumma-Man-Boy

[tcraw1010]

Yes it is

and still...F**K YOU, Tom.

Sanctimonious prick.

How better would this world be with less of your type, Tom. What's more is, more people agree with me. They're just sick of you pushing them around, that they just ignore you and you're "out of their hair", so to speak. So be it with me as well.



Hmmmmm ..... really .... So, because you think it, it must be so, eh ?? :lol:

Perhaps if you tried growing up, stop throwing around childish profanity (as you so sadly did, once again, above), and tried communicating with an ounce of courtesy and maturity - more people wouldn't view you as the little child you come across as.

Until then, you and your rantings are little more than at a 5th grade level.



Now, if you still want to ramble atop your little soapbox - perhaps you might take this to the PMs so that the rest of those who don't care about your little temper tantrums don't have to read your profane whining.

m'kay?



:cool:

[ctdrum1]

Sorry to Drummaman or anyone else if I came off "prickish" in my earlier responses. I'm really a nice mellow person. Blame it on a bad week at work.

As far as originaltiy is concerned, that one is really hard to quantify. I'll try to put into words what I'm listening for, and what I base it on.

Caveat emptor. "Buyer beware." This is just me talking, not all of us judges out here.

Here goes.

First off. most of my judging is based on 40+ years of listening. Everything from orchestral music, to modern rock. Live music is a huge part of the drummer and tech that I am. And if I'm not seeing a live show or playing, then I'm searching out new and interesting music to listen to.

A little about me and music.

I play daily. And I experiment freely with my music. If it means plaing time on a tube from a cymbal stand instead of a cymbal, then I'll at least try it. You never know.

I've heard a lot of great drummers in my years. Everyone from Buddy Rich to Stephen Perkins.

And I've heard many styles from many people around the world. I may not able to play it, but I know what it should sound like.

What helps make it original?

Does it sound like it's been rehashed? Copping a groove for a bar is one thing. Playing it note for note doesn't do it for me. If you do it, it shows me that you might have chops and skills but no originaltiy.

Odd time signatures. To me this one is easy, yet very difficult. I give points for keeping it together with odd time signatures. But remember musicality plays a part of it. If it's just a fill around the kit in an odd signature then I'll score it diffently than an odd signature played straight up on snare, bass, and hats.

Don't play a fill after playing a fill. See the next paragrah.

Keeping a common phasing throughout is another thing that many competitors doen't seem to grasp. A common repeating bar between fills that ties everything together gives listeners something to relate each section to.
Highly musical indeed. Especially if it has a really cool groove that will be remembered.

One last thing that many don't seem to grasp, and it's one that my fellow judges agree on. Keep it within the time alloted. None of us can stand it when people really run over. It seems to show a lack of musicality. Many do it, but we will not score anything after the time alloted no matted how good it is.

Speaking of time alloted. I've got to get my a** back to work. Hope this helps anyone competing. It's nice to see the competition getting better.

Mike

[drummaman1]

Now, if you still want to ramble atop your little soapbox - perhaps you might take this to the PMs so that the rest of those who don't care about your little temper tantrums don't have to read your profane whining.

m'kay?
:cool:

No.
I have nothing to hide, or say in private to you. Yes. it's VERY childish, pedantic...to a point unnecessary. But you must realize (you won't, sadly) that it is YOU. Not me, YOU. You provoke this kind of response from people. Does it make me look bad? Probably. But I get my ad hominem attacks in on you this way because you won't listen to anything I have to say. You've just dimissed me as some "loony leftie", and being very disrespectful, and arrogant to me, while writing that you're not at the same time.

Who's the real hypocrite? It's not for me or you to decide. The proof is in these here posts.

Apologies to all who have read this. This is not really a private matter, though. It's an ongoing problem. The problem is: I've done nothing but post my thoughts in these threads, in this forum, and I get dissed for them, wholly unnecessarily disrespected, because they aren't in line with "Ol' Tom Boy" here. Thus, the childish rants.

Maybe I should practice what I preach and ignore your ignorant sanctimonious prick a*s. Done and DONE.
:cool:

[tcraw1010]

Apologies to all who have read this. This is not really a private matter, though. It's an ongoing problem. The problem is: I've done nothing but post my thoughts in these threads, in this forum, and I get dissed for them, wholly unnecessarily disrespected, because they aren't in line with "Ol' Tom Boy" here. Thus, the childish rants.

The first step is admitting you have a problem. ;)



Maybe I should practice what I preach and ignore your ignorant sanctimonious prick a*s. Done and DONE.
:cool:


Maybe you should . . . . But hopefully you will first do a little growing up and put some actual thought into what you write before you post another one of your "shoot-from-the-hip" schoolyard tyraids again.

[tcraw1010]

Is/Has anyone attended any of the GC DrumOff events yet?


I'm going to go check out the final "prelims" tonight at my local store.

[XxStoryOfTheUSeDxX]

yeah im going tonight as well. Tom, this wouldn't be the first time you had another member at your throat....you see what you do to people? lol

[tcraw1010]

yeah im going tonight as well. Tom, this wouldn't be the first time you had another member at your throat....you see what you do to people? lol


"THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH !!!" ;)

http://www.theboxset.com/images/reviewcaptures/929capture_afewgoodmen04.jpg

[drummaman1]

Tom's version of the TRUTH:

http://www.fakecrap.com/images/jokes/dog_doo_rubber.jpg

:cool:

[tcraw1010]

My Self Portrait:

http://www.fakecrap.com/images/jokes/dog_doo_rubber.jpg

:cool:


Ummm, ya .. .okay. :roll:

[XxStoryOfTheUSeDxX]

Tom's version of the TRUTH:

http://www.fakecrap.com/images/jokes/dog_doo_rubber.jpg

:cool:

LOL!! Call me immature but that was funny...

[drummaman1]

LOL!! Call me immature but that was funny...

yes.... I do poop jokes, too.

Laugh Tom...it wouldn't hurt. It's not ALL about your ego.;)

[fubar1217]

yes.... I do poop jokes, too.

Laugh Tom...it wouldn't hurt. It's not ALL about your ego.;)

He'll be here all week ladies and gentlemen......

[tcraw1010]

Okay, I just got back from my local Guitar Center Drumoff Finals and, I have to be honest . . . I wasn't as impressed as I thought I would be.

There was ONE guy who looked as though he put some time and thought into his solo - and actually had some semi-decent chops (even pulling ogg a one handed drum roll).

However, on the whole, the solos were riddled with out-of-time tom/bass rolls (or, at least, valiant attempts at them) and cracking rim shots. Absent was any real technique, dynamics or showmanship.

I can totally understand ctdrum1's comments, as a judge, now.



Oh well . . . at least they were all there doing it. It was my first time going to one of these - and now I have a year to think about what I saw and throwing my hate in the ring next year. ;)


TOM

[painter213]

Man, Did you go to the one in Birmingham, Alabama. I just got back from there and it was the same way!! I see that you're in Ca, but It sounds like you was at the Drum off in Birmingham. Lots of rim shots, and pretty much a solo that was not planned out. Most of them done ok for about a minute, and then there solo's would go south, like they could not think of nothing else to do. I'm not a soloist, so that is why I DO NOT DO THEM.

painter213

[tcraw1010]

Man, Did you go to the one in Birmingham, Alabama. I just got back from there and it was the same way!! I see that you're in Ca, but It sounds like you was at the Drum off in Birmingham. Lots of rim shots, and pretty much a solo that was not planned out. Most of them done ok for about a minute, and then there solo's would go south, like they could not think of nothing else to do. I'm not a soloist, so that is why I DO NOT DO THEM.

painter213


I was at the El Toro, CA store.

The other thing that bugged the crap out of me was most of the contestants' attempts to change up the tempo and/or play in odd time signatures. I knew exactly what they were trying to do, but because they really didn't have a tight handle on their own tempo and/or groove, it sounded very very sloppy and off tempo.

Again, I watched very carefully and I just didn't see a whole lot of control or technique. It made me wqonder if any of them ever took a lesson or tried to learn their rudiments.

I know I am coming off as snotty .... but that's what I heard and saw.

I've always said, there is a vast difference between being a DRUMMER and "playing drums."
ANYONE can "play the drums" ... but it takes a lot of work and development to truly be a DRUMMER.



TOM

[Kanbasher]

Your a judge?

[drummaman1]

Hold on guys. Part of this "sloppiness" is attributed to the fact that the judges (and in turn, the audience) for the most part, want the soloist to play something new every time they get to the kit. It's a tall order for someone who doesn't operate that way.

In the store finals here (Rochester, NY) there was not so much of this "sloppyness" though I heard it in spades in the prelims. The pressure of having to do something "new" in a weeks time just turned some drummers off and had them go into "auto-pilot".

I'm not trying to justify sloppy drummers. Just trying to reinforce the pressure one endures in this situation, and what's placed on him/her to do on an instrument not typically known for extensive soloing (as you all know, it's grooving that gets us and keeps us working).

It takes a certain amount of "huztpah" for lack of a better word, to get up in front of total strangers and do a drum solo for 3 minutes. Some drummers have trouble soloing for 2 minutes, let alone 3.

Congrats to all the store winners!

[tcraw1010]

Your a judge?

Only as a spectator.

[tcraw1010]

Hold on guys. Part of this "sloppiness" is attributed to the fact that the judges (and in turn, the audience) for the most part, want the soloist to play something new every time they get to the kit. It's a tall order for someone who doesn't operate that way.

In the store finals here (Rochester, NY) there was not so much of this "sloppyness" though I heard it in spades in the prelims. The pressure of having to do something "new" in a weeks time just turned some drummers off and had them go into "auto-pilot".

I'm not trying to justify sloppy drummers. Just trying to reinforce the pressure one endures in this situation, and what's placed on him/her to do on an instrument not typically known for extensive soloing (as you all know, it's grooving that gets us and keeps us working).

It takes a certain amount of "huztpah" for lack of a better word, to get up in front of total strangers and do a drum solo for 3 minutes. Some drummers have trouble soloing for 2 minutes, let alone 3.


I certainly do not discount the "nerves" factor for these performers.

However, bear in mind that one can make the assumption that many of these people likely want to be pro/semi-professional. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that most of them are actively performing in bands. As such, performing in front of an audience should be part and parcel of the whole package.

Nevertheless, I wonder if there is a single performing musician out there who doesn't still get the "jitters" before stepping out on stage. I would think you 'd be hard pressed to find many.

Still, if I were going to compete in a drumming conteat where the performance was a 3-minute solo, I personally would try to compose somethign that could not only wow the crowd, but demonstrate my command of technique, control and musicality as a drummer.

Again, these are all MY personal opinions and observations.

[drummaman1]

sure. but...they expect something "new" every time you put stick to head or cymbal for three minutes. Yes, we all have our "signature licks" and they will always come out, but for some people, playing something different every time is as nerve-wracking as working from, for ex. the Dahlgren-Fine book(s) (damn those MN drummers!!!!)

:D :D

[Sam Bredeson]

Personally, I think the best way to tackle something like this would be to not plan at all. Generally, when I sit down, I have no idea what I'm going to play; it all depends on my mood, my physical tiredness, my mental tiredness, and how warm my hands are.

For example, it started snowing yesterday where I live, and I haven't been able to play for more than 5-10 minutes at a time since.

If I was to enter in a GC Drumoff, I would just get up and wing it, and hope that whatever I winged (wang?) was decent and lasted the whole three minutes. Speaking of, how does that work? Do they give you a light to stop or something?

[tcraw1010]

Personally, I think the best way to tackle something like this would be to not plan at all. Generally, when I sit down, I have no idea what I'm going to play; it all depends on my mood, my physical tiredness, my mental tiredness, and how warm my hands are.

For example, it started snowing yesterday where I live, and I haven't been able to play for more than 5-10 minutes at a time since.

If I was to enter in a GC Drumoff, I would just get up and wing it, and hope that whatever I winged (wang?) was decent and lasted the whole three minutes. Speaking of, how does that work? Do they give you a light to stop or something?


The "M.C." has a mic piped through speakers right next to where the contestant is. The contestant get's five minutes to set up (everyone used the same DW Collector's kit), and then a 15 second warning when the three minutes are ending.

I'll have to personally disagree with you, though, about the "winging it" aspect, though. Unless your chops and experience are at a level where you can pull from a grab-bag of phrasing and themes that you can cohesively put together within three minutes ... "winging it" frequently translate into someone trying to force pieces of a puzzle together that simply do not fit.

Now, I am not saying that there are drummers out there who canot "wing it" and do an amazing job at it - of course there are. Nevertheless, and again in my opinion, none of the contestants I saw where at this level.

The BEST drum solos, in my opinion, are those which are built around a base theme and build from there. Steve Smith and Neil Peart are masters at this. I think my absolute favorite drum solo is Steve Smith's off of Journey's "Captured" album. Surely, he goes off into a flurry of double-bass rolls and such - but he does so all within/around a central theme that ties it all together.


The bottom line is, of course . . . every person is different in what he/she wants/likes to hear. What would be appealing to me might not be appealing to you, or drummaman or JLee, etc. Of course, if everyone liked the very same thing - how boring would music be? ;)


TOM

[JLee]

The BEST drum solos, in my opinion, are those which are built around a base theme and build from there. Steve Smith and Neil Peart are masters at this. I think my absolute favorite drum solo is Steve Smith's off of Journey's "Captured" album. Surely, he goes off into a flurry of double-bass rolls and such - but he does so all within/around a central theme that ties it all together.


The bottom line is, of course . . . every person is different in what he/she wants/likes to hear. What would be appealing to me might not be appealing to you, or drummaman or JLee, etc. Of course, if everyone liked the very same thing - how boring would music be? ;)


TOM

Yep.

I know that there are musical elements I like that may not appeal to others. Nothing wrong with that. For example, there are many on this forum that disparage popular music, whereas I see nothing wrong with it. I can appreciate a well produced (not overproduced) song. I would not want a steady diet of Top 40, but I do see its merits.

Same goes with solos. I, for example, have a disdain for the use of too many crashes in ANY context, and would tend to minimize the nonmusical (read: stick twirling) actions included in a solo. Others may not.

[fubar1217]

I tend to reserve stick twirling for when I'm playing songs. When I solo (at home messing around) I'm too busy PLAYING to be twirling.

[Crazy8s]

I would never win. All I play is rimshots. Well, most of my accented snare hits are rimshots.

Actually, I had planned to compete a couple years ago, but it was entirely to present an artsy and anarchistic attitude. I thought I would go in and kinda mimic some solos that impressed me for a few minutes, kinda strung together like a song to be "dynamic", then progress in colume and intensity finishing with the sloppiest pile of **** frenzy of untimed notes on all the drums and cymbals within striking distance. I would finish my masterpiece by destroying the drumset that belonged to GC. That would ferking ROCK! Maybe next year.

[fubar1217]

I would never win. All I play is rimshots. Well, most of my accented snare hits are rimshots.

Actually, I had planned to compete a couple years ago, but it was entirely to present an artsy and anarchistic attitude. I thought I would go in and kinda mimic some solos that impressed me for a few minutes, kinda strung together like a song to be "dynamic", then progress in colume and intensity finishing with the sloppiest pile of **** frenzy of untimed notes on all the drums and cymbals within striking distance. I would finish my masterpiece by destroying the drumset that belonged to GC. That would ferking ROCK! Maybe next year.

LOL....set it on fire and kick it over! I'm sure that'll go over really well! Oh...and start flinging cymbals at the audience to inflict as much damage as possible. That should win em over.

[Paraflam]

What if it DOESN'T sound sloppy?

Furthermore, what if in the middle of my solo I decide to go from a two feel to a three feel? (Metric modulation)

Hell, if you play it clean and tight, there's no problem. But so many "drummers" these days are very, very sloppy and can't hold a groove. They need to woodshed with a metronome and Stick Control for a few months!

[smoke_n_drums]

I haven't "done" the drumoff primarily because I've had gigs on the same nights.

After reading the posts here I'd like to chime in with a few observations:

Aside from horns locking, I really liked the various points of view about an event that, like "World's Fastest Drummer" can be contoversial.

Judging: While I haven't specifically judged a Drumoff, I host an open jam (up to 3 nights a week) and all the sit-ins get "judged." Weak or substandard players are finished REALLY QUICK.

MOST COMMON FAULTS:
Tempo (What pocket?)
Dynamics (It's "my style" to play rimshots on 2&4)
Musicality (I have the baddest double bass licks and I'll play them anytime I feel like it)

ABOUT PLAYING:
I'd say a solo is a snap shot of that performer at that time, some things "work" and others don't. Even Terry Bozzio says he can't pull off some stuff on certain nights. Some nights I'm literally floating after a solo and on others I'm not so pleased.

For many, playing on a "strange" kit totally throws off their "feel" and therefore effects the performance. IMO: Time and experience will overcome this. Conversely sitting in on a really badd @ss sounding kit can inspire the performance. **For me playing a fully miced kit with the whole kit coming throught the monitors is like "being in" a drumming DVD and a total blast.**

Playing a different solo each time: Is this an actual CG Drumoff requirement? I play certain solos based on the song. Is it the EXACT same solo each time? No. **I reserve that for certain fills and "hooks."** However, I do try to stick to some established themes and go from there.

Finally: While many Drumoff contestants ARE substandard, the event in itself is a growing experience for them and if nothing else, their energy should be appreciated. **This is why I often go to "Monday Metal Mania" at a local club...the music, to my ears, is MOSTLY noise, and I am ALWAYS the oldest peep in the room. It's the shear energy of the evening that draws me in.**

Energy like this should inspire us as drummers and musicians.

Just the view from my Roc n Soc

[Crazy8s]

I frequently go to an open blues jam here in Phx. I usually go up first for a couple songs, then they have whatever other guys come in to play for a couple songs, then they ask me to play for the rest of the night which is usually an hour or so. It's funny because I don't know 90% of the songs, I just listen to what they are doing and try to lock the groove down.

I recommend that everyone play with people you don't know in an environment where you don't know the songs once in a while. It forces you to listen to the band and makes you simplify and lock down the beat. Plus it is just kinda fun to get real drunk and jam with good players. I never get loaded when I play in my regular groups until after we are done, so it is a nice change.

[Crazy8s]

Dynamics (It's "my style" to play rimshots on 2&4)


OUCH! I DO THAT!!!! but I also play lots of very soft little ghosties with my left on the hat or the snare. I like the way rimshots sound for backbeat, and it is part of my style. Not many people play a solid enough backbeat, and it is the backbeat that people dance to. Clap on 1 and 3 and go to jail...

[drummaman1]

True dat!

Look..after reading the posts from the past on this thread, I came across a little "uppity"...for the most part, yes, sloppy playing is and should be, discouraged. However, I still submit that the "sloppiness" may be an effect on the drummers part, as it does give a certain feel.

It's the tough role of the judge to discern the players intent from what it sounds like. It's a skill that takes many years of playing and listening to drums and drummers, to acquire.

Especially at store finals, the abilities are so much closer from drummer to drummer, that at times, it becomes difficult to tell each other apart, sound-wise.

The drummer that won at my local GC won because not because of what he played but how he played it. All he did was play a couple of grooves, and the drum fill was in essence the same one. But he played it with such conviction, such attitude, his drumming vocabulary may have been limited, but it didn't matter. He had the audience in the palm of his hand. That, and that he was the best dressed among us, clinched it for him. Not that we weren't serious, but he was SERIOUS...about playing, about winning. It's a mindset.

It would be nice if it was just about grooving. But it's not just 3 minutes of grooving, either. People expect...I dunno...things...drumsticks flailing, screaming, kicking, backflips...and are dissapointed when the drummer just "grooves" WHEN IT'S THE DRUMMER'S JOB TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

What would be neat is too have a drumoff for those who "think" they can play drums. I love guitar, but I don't go around town telling people this guitarist sucks, he should play it this way, and that guitarist needs to work on his scales...I want the armchair quarterbacks, to grab a pair and show me what you got! That'll shut them up real quick, won't it?

[smoke_n_drums]

OUCH! I DO THAT!!!! but I also play lots of very soft little ghosties with my left on the hat or the snare. I like the way rimshots sound for backbeat, and it is part of my style. Not many people play a solid enough backbeat, and it is the backbeat that people dance to. Clap on 1 and 3 and go to jail...

I used to do that too ! Now I rely on the natural power of a well built, good sounding snare. This way I have rimshots for accents or when the guitar turns up to "eleven."

About playing with "strangers:" This will fine tune your "radar" and once you've got your ears "on" you can play with just about any band or style of music.

[fubar1217]

I used to do that too ! Now I rely on the natural power of a well built, good sounding snare. This way I have rimshots for accents or when the guitar turns up to "eleven."

About playing with "strangers:" This will fine tune your "radar" and once you've got your ears "on" you can play with just about any band or style of music.

I got called a couple times to fill-in for my singer's band (he's the drummer in that band). My experience is mostly in pop/rock cover tunes and here I was, sitting in for an Irish wedding band! It was truly a great experience playing with them. As smoke said above, it forces you to fine tune your "radar" and open your ears which is always a good thing.

[tcraw1010]

I know I'll come off sounding like a snot .... but I truly believe that someone cannot call him/herself a drummer without having an appreciation and ability to be diverse in his/her playing - and that includes rock, pop, jazz, blues, funk, country, etc - as well as knowing and being able to execute your rudiments (which are the building blocks for most drumming patterns/fills anyway).

Otherwise, in my opinion, you're just "playing drums."


:cool:

[JLee]

I know I'll come off sounding like a snot .... but I truly believe that someone cannot call him/herself a drummer without having an appreciation and ability to be diverse in his/her playing - and that includes rock, pop, jazz, blues, funk, country, etc - as well as knowing and being able to execute your rudiments (which are the building blocks for most drumming patterns/fills anyway).

Otherwise, in my opinion, you're just "playing drums."


:cool:


Well, I do okay in the versatility department, though my skills as a straight ahead jazz player would be fairly limited due to lack of experience.

However, where it comes to rudiments, let's just say that, based on the description above I am just "playing drums".

[smoke_n_drums]

IMO there is a trade off between technique and feeling.

There ARE a few greats that have total groove yet some would argue "sloppy" technique.

Elvin Jones' and Max Roach's rolls comes to mind....Elvin has actually stated that he knew what his rolls sounded like and wanted them to stay that way. Max introduced a musicality to drums that continued through Tony Williams and Terry Bozzio (both having excellent technique..)

Technique on it's own will make for an engaging drummers' DVD but without feeling not get heard by the general listening public.

How many average "Joes" know who Thomas Lang or Virgil Donati are?

For me, technique helps turn the ideas in my head to sound

[smoke_n_drums]

Well, I do okay in the versatility department, though my skills as a straight ahead jazz player would be fairly limited due to lack of experience.

However, where it comes to rudiments, let's just say that, based on the description above I am just "playing drums".


If you're having a good time.......then this is enough.

[Crazy8s]

There have been billions of records sold where the drummer was actually a drum machine. No groove, no technique, just a computer making sounds in time.

[fubar1217]

I know I'll come off sounding like a snot .... but I truly believe that someone cannot call him/herself a drummer without having an appreciation and ability to be diverse in his/her playing - and that includes rock, pop, jazz, blues, funk, country, etc - as well as knowing and being able to execute your rudiments (which are the building blocks for most drumming patterns/fills anyway).

Otherwise, in my opinion, you're just "playing drums."


:cool:

I guess I just "play drums" too. Which is fine....cause I get called to "play drums" more than I get to sit at home and work on my rudiments. ;)

I also appreciate anything percussive so that includes latin percussion, african percussion, bells, chimes, etc. I guess I'm a "percusser"? :p

[smoke_n_drums]

I guess I just "play drums" too. Which is fine....cause I get called to "play drums" more than I get to sit at home and work on my rudiments. I also appreciate anything percussive so that includes latin percussion, african percussion, bells, chimes, etc. I guess I'm a "percusser"? :p

How about Percusstitute? :cool:

[drummaman1]

I know I'll come off sounding like a snot .... but I truly believe that someone cannot call him/herself a drummer without having an appreciation and ability to be diverse in his/her playing - and that includes rock, pop, jazz, blues, funk, country, etc - as well as knowing and being able to execute your rudiments (which are the building blocks for most drumming patterns/fills anyway).

Otherwise, in my opinion, you're just "playing drums."


:cool:

That is actually the ideal, that most drummers should be this way. Fortunately, some people just sound better playing specific styles of music.

Neil can swing, much better these days especially, but I WON'T hear him playing be-bop or hard bop full-time anytime soon. What he's playing (Rush) is EXACTLY what he should be playing.

Another great example is Phil Rudd. He probably could "spang-a-lang" like the best of them, but he's so good at what he does, I don't want to hear anything else.

There's always going to be an "imbalance" of sorts, as far as genres are concerned. Some are more rock influenced, some are more jazz. It seems to me the drummers who listen to musics OUTSIDE of the US (Afro-Cuban, African, Caribbean, Southern European/Middle East, Indian, Asian) are the most well-rounded out of all the drummers that I've heard.

As far as rudiments, I agree, you need to have some of them down. Drummers who don't know rudiments are like people who speak a language other than the one they learned from birth.

[tcraw1010]

Neil can swing, much better these days especially, but I WON'T hear him playing be-bop or hard bop full-time anytime soon. What he's playing (Rush) is EXACTLY what he should be playing.


The thing about Neil Peart ... he wanted to stretch his abilities and, in fact, sought out Freddy Grueber for this purpose. While he will likely never have the feel of a Peter Erskine or Steve Gadd, Peart, nevertheless, understood that to be a complete musician, he needed to embrace all kinds of different music.

Of course, everyone will have his/her own specialty at which he/she excells at - such as Peart (rock), Weckl (Jazz), Gadd/Collaiuta (everything), etc.



As far as rudiments, I agree, you need to have some of them down. Drummers who don't know rudiments are like people who speak a language other than the one they learned from birth.

Great comment ... I AGREE !!!!

:cool:

[munich]

"As far as rudiments, I agree, you need to have some of them down. Drummers who don't know rudiments are like people who speak a language other than the one they learned from birth."

Hm, I'm not sure I understand this one.
I do speak English now, most of the time.
My wife is US American, I live and work in the USA.
But my first language is German.
I'm not as witty and funny in English yet, but I'm still the same old idiot
that I used to be in Germany.
Same flaws, same humor or lack thereof.
I do know all the 26 rudiments, though...

[JLee]

"As far as rudiments, I agree, you need to have some of them down. Drummers who don't know rudiments are like people who speak a language other than the one they learned from birth."



I guess I am a functional illiterate then. Oh well.

[drummaman1]

I don't mean to offend.

You can tell the difference between a drummer who knows a paradiddle or flam and one who doesn't. That doesn't make one "bad" and one "good".

Bad analogy.

[munich]

I don't mean to offend.

You can tell the difference between a drummer who knows a paradiddle or flam and one who doesn't. That doesn't make one "bad" and one "good".

Bad analogy.

I wasn't offended.
Just didn't get the analogy.

[Crazy8s]

Most really good drummers who did not learn the rudiments to begin with learn them as they go. They may not be aware that they are doing flam-taps or ratamacues or whatever, but they will play them all the same. It is impossible, or very difficult, to play certain figures around the drums unless you do stickings other than right then left. I will hear figures in my head and then work out a comfortable sticking so that I can play it efficiently. I do not say to myself that it will be a double flam-tap dragadiddle combined with a triple ratamacue followed by a 9 stroke open roll... I just play the figure.

Then again, I kinda suck, so this probably means paradiddly-squat.

[JLee]

I don't mean to offend.

You can tell the difference between a drummer who knows a paradiddle or flam and one who doesn't. That doesn't make one "bad" and one "good".

Bad analogy.

Paradiddles and flams are rudiments? Well, I know two of the 26.

[munich]

Paradiddles and flams are rudiments? Well, I know two of the 26.

Yes - and yay!
;)

You know even more:
single stroke rolls and double stroke rolls, for instance.

[Sam Bredeson]

26? The poster in our school's band room has like 45 rudiments... It's the Vic Firth one

I can basically handle any of the rudiments that don't involve paradiddles. They escape me for some reason.

I also am just "playing drums" by the above definition.

[munich]

26? The poster in our school's band room has like 45 rudiments... It's the Vic Firth one

I can basically handle any of the rudiments that don't involve paradiddles. They escape me for some reason.

I also am just "playing drums" by the above definition.

I suppose they added to them.
When I learned them, there were 26 basic rudiments.

"PAS International Drum Rudiments

The Percussive Arts Society International Drum Rudiments consist of the traditional 26 rudiments along with a number of drum corps, orchestral, European, and contemporary drum rudiments."



http://www.pas.org/Resources/rudiments/rudiments.html

http://drumnetwork.com/rudi1.htm

[JLee]

Yes - and yay!
;)

You know even more:
single stroke rolls and double stroke rolls, for instance.

I am up to FOUR!! People are going to start mistaking me for George Lawrence Stone!!

[Crazy8s]

I am up to FOUR!! People are going to start mistaking me for George Lawrence Stone!!

Technically, there are really only like 5 or 6 rudiments. Everything else is just a combination of them. Flams, drags, paradiddles, open and closed rolls.

[munich]

Technically, there are really only like 5 or 6 rudiments. Everything else is just a combination of them. Flams, drags, paradiddles, open and closed rolls.

Correct.
It still helps to have some of those combinations down.

[smoke_n_drums]

Technically, there are really only like 5 or 6 rudiments. Everything else is just a combination of them. Flams, drags, paradiddles, open and closed rolls.


When I took my NARD audition in 1973 I had to execute ALL of the 13 main rudiments (slow to fast, open to closed and back) and any of the 13 additional rudiments requested. I also had to play a written piece and sight read a piece given to me by the NARD representative.

**As it turns out I played ALL 26 rudiments and both written pieces TWICE.....Later I was told my "wise ass" mouth pissed off the Rep and thus was given "the treatment." Luckily I passed, sadly, the drum teacher/NARD Rep was fired prior to my receiving my credentials and me being a "wise-ass" didn't think it important to pursue.**

This makes up 26 "American" rudiments.

I believe PAS has 19 "International" rudiments.

Many of the "new age" rudiments are actually hybrids combining all or parts of the basics......sometimes it seems they are even played "inside out."

[smoke_n_drums]

Correct.
It still helps to have some of those combinations down.

YES! YES! YES!......Flams and Flam Taps (ala Tony Williams/Terry Bozzio) on the toms seems to really be a big crowd pleaser!

At least in my world it is :cool:

[drummaman1]

There are officially 40 rudiments.

with new ones being "discovered" every day or so.

one of my fave new ones is the "pataflafla"

You get it up to a certain speed, it sound like youre playing a samba! fun!

[Crazy8s]

When I took my NARD audition in 1973 I had to execute ALL of the 13 main rudiments (slow to fast, open to closed and back) and any of the 13 additional rudiments requested. I also had to play a written piece and sight read a piece given to me by the NARD representative.

**As it turns out I played ALL 26 rudiments and both written pieces TWICE.....Later I was told my "wise ass" mouth pissed off the Rep and thus was given "the treatment." Luckily I passed, sadly, the drum teacher/NARD Rep was fired prior to my receiving my credentials and me being a "wise-ass" didn't think it important to pursue.**

This makes up 26 "American" rudiments.

I believe PAS has 19 "International" rudiments.

Many of the "new age" rudiments are actually hybrids combining all or parts of the basics......sometimes it seems they are even played "inside out."


Did you just say NARD several times? Tsk tsk... Just teasin' Smoke...

[tcraw1010]

26? The poster in our school's band room has like 45 rudiments... It's the Vic Firth one

I can basically handle any of the rudiments that don't involve paradiddles. They escape me for some reason.


If you can play singles and doubles, then you can play paradiddles - because that's all they are.

Practice man ... Practice.


;)

[smoke_n_drums]

Did you just say NARD several times? Tsk tsk... Just teasin' Smoke...

The N.A.R.D. (National Association of Rudimental Drummers) was around BEFORE the term "nerd" was coined.

Listen!

What's that sound?

Oh..............It's just my arteries hardening

[Crazy8s]

If you can play singles and doubles, then you can play paradiddles - because that's all they are.

Practice man ... Practice.


;)

Playing singles and doubles doesn't teach your hands any kind of independence, but paradiddles are designed to do exactly that.

Back to the Drumoff though... Who won? was it some 10 year old kid who blows all of us away? I considered competing but knowing myself I would have just destroyed the drumkit like a Keith Moon at the end. I love to crap out the biggest pile of shizz at the end of a good set, like make as much garbage noise as possible... Wouldn't that be great? Go up there and play a couple minutes of chopsy and creative solo crap then finish it off with the biggest pile of **** imaginable then trash the drums! So awesome and everyone would hate me! RAWK!!!!

[pipus]

I will hear figures in my head and then work out a comfortable sticking so that I can play it efficiently. I do not say to myself that it will be a double flam-tap dragadiddle combined with a triple ratamacue followed by a 9 stroke open roll... I just play the figure.

Even the formaly educated drummers do it like that (just listen to Vinnie's interview on the video for the MD weekend festival when he was intoduced to the Hall of Fame). Rudiments are to be internalized and absorbed, not to be memorized and played as computer program. They are tools to a mean, and without the absortion, and internatilaztion (meaning playing them without thinking ahead I want to play this and this in this order) it all becomes pure technique with no emotion.

Pipus

PS Dragadiddle sound like the name for a drummer in drag.

[drummaman1]

The finals are in LA in January, I think to coincide with NAMM.I don't know for sure.

Judging strictly by the past winners, I think we know what kind of drummer will win it. I could be wrong, though.